Curse

Avarre · Dec 14, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Obviously an opinion vs a statement of truth. In PvE players are often in situations where they can not kite. Especially if heading out without a group of players. The AI will not allow it. So it is not the players fault they have learned not to kite, it's the AIs and Anet's design in the AI. The player tries the kite, the AI breaks off the attacking and begins to follow. It's always been this way to some extent and most rescently has become worse.

There is a sizeable difference between kiting and running away. Kiting does not mean changing your relative position - you want to remain offensively capable while avoiding melee counterattacks. Kite laterally in the battle area rather than back out of it. Hench won't break off attacks and follow if you don't move away in terms of relative positioning - which is running away, and no longer kiting.

Tarkin · Dec 14, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

You're up for great diversity there buddy. I don't suppose both those monks run healing?

Any party of 8...

I ever play safe, if 1 tank die you still with 1, if 1 monk die you still with 1...

And yes i use 2 healing monks...

About diversity my party build in elona is

Me like > any of 10 classes
my 3 low level heros to level up them
devona >FTW
2 healing monks
Elem

My 90% anyplace build team is

Me like > any of 10 classes
2 tanks
2 monks
1 barrage
1 nuker or other barrage
1 my special necro build or MM or a mesmer

I play a efective build team, but i not a brainless noob i kown you can run a 6 man mesmer team + 2 monks, can run partys without tanks... but this party builds will work in 5% <> 10% of all areas? If you stop and make a team build for everyplace, your son will end the game for you...
I talking about a fast good team with 2 tanks and 2 monks...

nothing personal buddy, i just defending my way of playing.

Hyaon · Dec 14, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

it's sad that the only way to successfuly aggro and hold it in areas like doa is by using bad clipping on walls. No walls or sticking out bits? Nevermind.

Avarre · Dec 14, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

About diversity my party build in elona is

Me like > any of 10 classes
my 3 low level heros to level up them
devona >FTW
2 healing monks
Elem

If you're referring to hench, you cannot have two Healing monks. Kihm [Healer Henchman] is a ZB/prot monk iirc.

Tarkin · Dec 14, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Tiral...

Tural....

Tema....

TOMBS!!!!

There, I remembered.

See also "Urgoz Warren".

I kown you can play some areas without tanks, but you need to trick the foes in this areas you say...
But i talking about good tanking and a good party build to pass 90% of areas...
Man i think out of the box i love new party builds... i like mesmers, rit, and sin in the partys...
Not personal but you talking about high end team partys, i talking about partys teams for novices and regular players

Tarkin · Dec 14, 2006, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

If you're referring to hench, you cannot have two Healing monks. Kihm [Healer Henchman] is a ZB/prot monk iirc.

Sure? well dont mather the foes are dead before do damage to my party anyway

the tank hold agroo the nuker nuke the ranger barrage the necro necro them

I will look the skills of Kihm... good set of skills really khim not a pure healing...

Kihm idle quotes in Kourna:

"I'm right behind you. No, don't turn around. The battle is in front of you. Let me worry about your backside."
"Look, I'm a healer. You fight and I'll keep you standing. So stop looking to see if you're hurt and get back out there!"

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Priest Of Sin · Dec 14, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Warriors can still absorb more damage than any other class. For instance: in the mission where you must protect the Dervish NPC from the mobs she runs into, the Tank can save her life by running ahead and absorbing the brunt of the enemies attacks, even if the monk is preoccupied.

And FYI, i can still hold aggro with Cyclone Axe or Triple Chop. It's all a matter of ticking off the monsters

lyra_song · Dec 14, 2006, 03:31 PM // 15:31

GW doesnt have any real tanks.

A real tank can absorb damage being taken by another class.

How about this skill:

"I am your sacrifice!"
5 energy
Elite Shout.
For the next 30 seconds, if a nearby ally were to be attacked, that damage is deflected to you and you suffer (100%......25%) of that damage.

Carth` · Dec 14, 2006, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by WasAGuest

Also, building a skill bar around obvious bugs (such as Benny Hill chasing); and yes these are bugs in the AI that Gaile has said the devs are working on fixing (read the threads on AI bugginess) is just more "exploit" poor code vs skill. Benny Hill... so yea, it's bugged and snaring or knock downs doesn't fix the bug, it exploits it as the AI (mobs and ally) will simply keep trying to follow. - this is nothing different from what was stated in the "Brute force" thread, where the game is less skill vs exploiting code weakness.

?!!

Kiting is not an AI bug. You could learn a thing or two from the kiting the AI does. Why do you think people bring snares/knockdowns/speed boosts in PvP? To catch kiters. The AI used to sit there and take a beating, this was wrong, and it made PvE players lazy. As soon as the AI does something as simple as moving in circles, it is game breaking for you? People have been doing it in PvP for years.

Carth` · Dec 14, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

How about this skill:

"I am your sacrifice!"
5 energy
Elite Shout.
For the next 30 seconds, if a nearby ally were to be attacked, that damage is deflected to you and you suffer (100%......25%) of that damage.

Sounds a bit like Angelic Bond?

FoxBat · Dec 14, 2006, 03:38 PM // 15:38

If we're going to have AI aggro improvements, I'd rather see something that more closely simulates PvP strategy (beat on weak or overextended things, use caster shutdowns only on casters, melee shutdowns on melee, maybe even coordinated spiking with sudden target switch, etc.) Not some hate system that makes monsters beat on the character they generally shouldn't (wars) I wouldn't mind wars getting more "defend rest of party" skills instead of not that useful tanking stances. (or the angelic bond suggestion listed above)

One thing people still haven't learned is that 4+ warriors with monk (and maybe an MM) support can outDPS nukers in alot of areas. The damage doesen't come in huge bursts, but you don't have to wait for recharges or energy recovery, and you don't need to spend time until one tank has all aggro when you've got 4 100 AL "tanks" to bodyblock everything, and their skill bar full of attacks.

*Darcy* · Dec 14, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

IMO anyone who misses tanking with their warrior is crazy (or lazy). My first times in FOW, I was told I didn't need to worry about damage skills, just draw aggro and use defensive stances. I found that so boring that I quit doing FOW with my warrior.

Now every quest/mission is an adventure. Look for the healer(s), then look for high damage threat. Change your skill bar to suit the occasion. I'm having fun now with my warrior. No more "Dumb warrior lost aggro" remarks from over-dependent casters.

Antheus · Dec 14, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarkin

I kown you can play some areas without tanks, but you need to trick the foes in this areas you say...
But i talking about good tanking and a good party build to pass 90% of areas...
Man i think out of the box i love new party builds... i like mesmers, rit, and sin in the partys...
Not personal but you talking about high end team partys, i talking about partys teams for novices and regular players

That's the key here: those areas aren't without tanks. Tanking just works differently. Those areas are just done without warriors.

Unfortunately, in normal areas, the role of warrior is just to run in and take the initial spike, after that it doesn't matter since stuff dies so fast, or simply doesn't position itself to counter usual player builds.

For all normal PvE, especially with heroes, a single tank is enough, since stuff dies so fast it doesn't matter. This is also the main reason why it's hard to learn, since you can only improve in high-end areas.

The role of "tank" is not like other games where you have a class that's designed to that role. Tanking = keeping focus away from backline. This is why kiting is one skills that falls under tanking. They both serve exactly the same purpose, keeping pressure off the backline. Warriors are just best suited to do this by body blocking, and keeping mobs just out of range of others. What else a warrior can do is entirely up to them, interrupts, damage, conditions, KDs, ...

Tarkin · Dec 14, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darcy

IMO anyone who misses tanking with their warrior is crazy (or lazy). My first times in FOW, I was told I didn't need to worry about damage skills, just draw aggro and use defensive stances. I found that so boring that I quit doing FOW with my warrior.

Now every quest/mission is an adventure. Look for the healer(s), then look for high damage threat. Change your skill bar to suit the occasion. I'm having fun now with my warrior. No more "Dumb warrior lost aggro" remarks from over-dependent casters.

VERY GOOD POINT!

The things changed... now tanks need to fight, the new role of tank is run in take the first spell wave hold >some< agroo and fight... now the others players must be a bit more smarter and efective to still alive, thats i saying...
now foes have a better set of skills if tank dont take the first wave of spells and the party dont spread the foes >aoe< skills rip out the party, i see bosses killing all party just with one spell...

Phaern Majes · Dec 14, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowfox1125

One more thing: How would those skills be applied to PvP? I don't think Anet wants PvE only skills.

Lightbringers Gaze, Lightbringer's Signet, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet. Seems to me they already have them......

Antheus · Dec 14, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

Lightbringers Gaze, Lightbringer's Signet, and Sunspear Rebirth Signet. Seems to me they already have them......

Pvp has enough shouts for agro management.

They involve references to various parts of anatomy, assessments of other player's skill level, and honorable mentions of various familiy members, and actions performed by them.

Sekkira · Dec 14, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Okay then, lets scrap all the eventual AI improvements ArenaNet has been working on and throw in that aggro skill that gets enemies onto you. Now we just run tanks and nukers. Hell, lets go remove the minion limit and the %per minion cost of Blood of the Master too.

Remember the gear/book trick?

Feurin Longcastle · Dec 14, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Okay then, lets scrap all the eventual AI improvements ArenaNet has been working on and throw in that aggro skill that gets enemies onto you. Now we just run tanks and nukers. Hell, lets go remove the minion limit and the %per minion cost of Blood of the Master too.

Remember the gear/book trick?

If you've ever taken a foray into DoA, you'd know that that's exactly what's being used.

I find it humourous to see all the comments regarding warriors taking the aggro first by running in first. The AI doesn't function like this anymore. As soon as other targets come within range, they switch targets immediately. The warrior has no more capability to hold aggro than any other "tank"; the mobs simply go for squishier targets first. The only reason this strategy works in DoA is because of the massive KD's that prevent them from splitting. And even this isn't failsafe, sometimes one breaks through leading to disastrous results.

Avarre · Dec 14, 2006, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feurin Longcastle

As soon as other targets come within range, they switch targets immediately.

Which is why you wait until the first wave of offensive spells has been expended before moving soft targets into range.

You know, that initial wave of spells that made people fill Riverside with tears because it spiked them? Warriors and to an extent, rangers can push up first, while the midline/backline group follows a few seconds after. This minimizes the damage taken in the first few seconds - the time before your team can apply shutdown or damage onto the enemy.

Sekkira · Dec 14, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Preventing breaking with chain kd's until the mob is dead and the book trick of which regardless, the mob would attack the carrier are two very seperate things.